Comments on: cattle:aurochs::dogs:wolves? http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/archives/144 "(2) A wild scheme" Mon, 08 Mar 2010 20:56:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc hourly 1 By: icr http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/archives/144/comment-page-1#comment-101 icr Sat, 11 Oct 2008 16:10:49 +0000 http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/?p=144#comment-101 Below is a link to a video where an owner displays their six fully-formed toes and their extreme flexibility. Thy are also shown climbing into the cliffs to kill puffins: http://varoyrhs.com/it/skattekammer/lundehunden/index.htm Below is a link to a video where an owner displays their six fully-formed toes and their extreme flexibility. Thy are also shown climbing into the cliffs to kill puffins:
http://varoyrhs.com/it/skattekammer/lundehunden/index.htm

]]> By: icr http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/archives/144/comment-page-1#comment-100 icr Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:02:17 +0000 http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/?p=144#comment-100 Could the really strange Norwegian Lundehund have evolved from wolves? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Lundehund (...) The Lundehund has a great range of motion in its joints, allowing it to fit into narrow passages. The head can be bent backwards along the dog's own spine, and the forelegs can turn to the side at a 90-degree angle to its body, much like human arms. Its pricked, upright ears can be sealed nearly shut by folding them forward or backward.The Norwegian Lundehund is polydactyl: instead of the normal four toes a foot, the Lundehund has six toes, all fully formed, jointed and muscled. The outercoat is dense and rough with a soft undercoat. The Lundehund is adapted to climb narrow cliff paths in Rost where it natively would have hunted puffins. (...) Could the really strange Norwegian Lundehund have evolved from wolves?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Lundehund
(…)
The Lundehund has a great range of motion in its joints, allowing it to fit into narrow passages. The head can be bent backwards along the dog’s own spine, and the forelegs can turn to the side at a 90-degree angle to its body, much like human arms. Its pricked, upright ears can be sealed nearly shut by folding them forward or backward.The Norwegian Lundehund is polydactyl: instead of the normal four toes a foot, the Lundehund has six toes, all fully formed, jointed and muscled. The outercoat is dense and rough with a soft undercoat. The Lundehund is adapted to climb narrow cliff paths in Rost where it natively would have hunted puffins.
(…)

]]> By: A. Lane Batot http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/archives/144/comment-page-1#comment-99 A. Lane Batot Mon, 19 May 2008 15:12:16 +0000 http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/?p=144#comment-99 Recent DNA testing of dog breeds is changing thoughts on the oldest breeds closest to wolves. The information I read listed Siberian Huskies(no suprise there), Basenjis(basically small tropical dingoes, very similar to your Shibas), and bizarrely(to me) Shar Peis! What exactly do you mean by "pigs backbreeding and dogs do not"???? Recent DNA testing of dog breeds is changing thoughts on the oldest breeds closest to wolves. The information I read listed Siberian Huskies(no suprise there), Basenjis(basically small tropical dingoes, very similar to your Shibas), and bizarrely(to me) Shar Peis! What exactly do you mean by “pigs backbreeding and dogs do not”????

]]> By: Sarah Jumel http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/archives/144/comment-page-1#comment-98 Sarah Jumel Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:15:50 +0000 http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/?p=144#comment-98 An interesting idea I heard was that the dog came from a small wolf breed, now gone, and that the Japanese Shiba Inu dog is the closest to that breed. If you have the privilege of observing one of these dogs, you will find it very close to a wild animal in its actions. Also, the size of a Shiba Inu is very close to the optimal dog size (that is, the size that lives longest and is most 'average' for feral bred dogs the world over.) The pattern on the dogs is also similar to a wolf or dingo pattern. I personally think it is not valid to compare pigs (who do backbreed) with other animals that do not, like dogs; I also suspect hybridization is at work in dogs, cats and probably in our own origins. Fornication is after all something we do a great deal more than other creatures anyhow.) An interesting idea I heard was that the dog came from a small wolf breed, now gone, and that the Japanese Shiba Inu dog is the closest to that breed. If you have the privilege of observing one of these dogs, you will find it very close to a wild animal in its actions. Also, the size of a Shiba Inu is very close to the optimal dog size (that is, the size that lives longest and is most ‘average’ for feral bred dogs the world over.) The pattern on the dogs is also similar to a wolf or dingo pattern.
I personally think it is not valid to compare pigs (who do backbreed) with other animals that do not, like dogs; I also suspect hybridization is at work in dogs, cats and probably in our own origins. Fornication is after all something we do a great deal more than other creatures anyhow.)

]]> By: A. Lane Batot http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/archives/144/comment-page-1#comment-97 A. Lane Batot Tue, 29 May 2007 13:54:32 +0000 http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/?p=144#comment-97 !@#$%^&*&^%$#@! Computers!! Sorry about that; I'll try again. Meanwhile, since I have returned to civilization(if you can call a zoo civilized), here are some wolf titles concerning captive, or tame wolves--LOTS of wolf books out there, these are just some in my library. "Secret Go The Wolves" by R.D. Lawrence is about the author raising and releasing a pair of wolves back to the wild. Another book by Lawrence on this topic is "In Praise Of Wolves", where he studies a well-known captive pack, and then aquires and keeps a couple more wolves himself. Lawrence has written A LOT of stuff, and is controversial because of his lack of "credentials", but I like the guy's books. An old classic is "Artic Wild" by Lois Chrysler, and the sad sequel "Captive Wild". Good information-horrible writing! Chrysler's writing style drives me bonkers! "The Soul Of The Wolf" is good, by famous author and activist Michael Fox--he is VEHEMENTLY against keeping wolves as pets, but of course HE did it himself! "Wild Voice Of The North" by Sally Carrigher is good--mostly about sled dogs, but with a blatant reference to Eskimos breeding their dogs to wolves WITH PHOTOGRAPHS to back it up(malamute breeders may cringe now). A good book on Hollywood animals used in films, including wolves, is Pat Derby's "The Lady And Her Tiger"--lots of books of this genera--amazing the bonds and trainability of a lot of "wild" animals--and sadly, a lot of abuse, too. For fun I recommend a story out of the James Willard Schultz book of Blackfoot Indian stories "Why Gone Those Times" with "Laugher, The Story Of A Tame Wolf"--an excellent account of a wolf raised in a Plains Indian camp(presented as true--and it rings true). Reading Barry Lopez's book "Of Wolves And Men" gives a very in depth view of the difference in attitude between Europeans and Native Americans on wolves. You can bet stone age hunter/gatherers had views like historical Native Americans. And guess what, Lopez also kept some Red Wolf/Coyote hybrids as pets, too. With the PLETHORA of liturature about tame wolves out there, there is no excuse for Coppinger's statement about it being virtually impossible to tame a wolf! Even worse, the very institution involving captive wolves that he associates with--Wolf Park in Indiana, has captive wolves that they can go in with, leash up and walk them to a Bison enclosure where the wolves are allowed to "test" the bison for public displays, as well as being so handalable that vets can give them their shots, etc. without knocking them out. I would consider THAT purty darn tame! I have also had experiences with captive tame wolves that were very friendly and handalable--even for complete strangers! Wolves in captivity usually only trust the people they are raised with, unless they are constantly exposed to a lot of people growing up. !@#$%^&*&^%$#@! Computers!! Sorry about that; I’ll try again. Meanwhile, since I have returned to civilization(if you can call a zoo civilized), here are some wolf titles concerning captive, or tame wolves–LOTS of wolf books out there, these are just some in my library. “Secret Go The Wolves” by R.D. Lawrence is about the author raising and releasing a pair of wolves back to the wild. Another book by Lawrence on this topic is “In Praise Of Wolves”, where he studies a well-known captive pack, and then aquires and keeps a couple more wolves himself. Lawrence has written A LOT of stuff, and is controversial because of his lack of “credentials”, but I like the guy’s books. An old classic is “Artic Wild” by Lois Chrysler, and the sad sequel “Captive Wild”. Good information-horrible writing! Chrysler’s writing style drives me bonkers! “The Soul Of The Wolf” is good, by famous author and activist Michael Fox–he is VEHEMENTLY against keeping wolves as pets, but of course HE did it himself! “Wild Voice Of The North” by Sally Carrigher is good–mostly about sled dogs, but with a blatant reference to Eskimos breeding their dogs to wolves WITH PHOTOGRAPHS to back it up(malamute breeders may cringe now). A good book on Hollywood animals used in films, including wolves, is Pat Derby’s “The Lady And Her Tiger”–lots of books of this genera–amazing the bonds and trainability of a lot of “wild” animals–and sadly, a lot of abuse, too. For fun I recommend a story out of the James Willard Schultz book of Blackfoot Indian stories “Why Gone Those Times” with “Laugher, The Story Of A Tame Wolf”–an excellent account of a wolf raised in a Plains Indian camp(presented as true–and it rings true). Reading Barry Lopez’s book “Of Wolves And Men” gives a very in depth view of the difference in attitude between Europeans and Native Americans on wolves. You can bet stone age hunter/gatherers had views like historical Native Americans. And guess what, Lopez also kept some Red Wolf/Coyote hybrids as pets, too. With the PLETHORA of liturature about tame wolves out there, there is no excuse for Coppinger’s statement about it being virtually impossible to tame a wolf! Even worse, the very institution involving captive wolves that he associates with–Wolf Park in Indiana, has captive wolves that they can go in with, leash up and walk them to a Bison enclosure where the wolves are allowed to “test” the bison for public displays, as well as being so handalable that vets can give them their shots, etc. without knocking them out. I would consider THAT purty darn tame! I have also had experiences with captive tame wolves that were very friendly and handalable–even for complete strangers! Wolves in captivity usually only trust the people they are raised with, unless they are constantly exposed to a lot of people growing up.

]]> By: dr.hypercube http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/archives/144/comment-page-1#comment-96 dr.hypercube Mon, 28 May 2007 15:01:17 +0000 http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/?p=144#comment-96 Lane - the reply-to address on the email you sent me isn't working - when you get a chance, pls. email me your real address so I can reply - thanks. Lane – the reply-to address on the email you sent me isn’t working – when you get a chance, pls. email me your real address so I can reply – thanks.

]]> By: A. Lane Batot http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/archives/144/comment-page-1#comment-95 A. Lane Batot Wed, 23 May 2007 16:34:57 +0000 http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/?p=144#comment-95 I am going to be away from work--my only source for computer access--for FIVE(count'em!) days, but I will get some wolf titles while I'm off and post them when I return(IF I have not totally reverted to a feral state).Anyone who is going to study and propose theories on dog domestication REALLY NEEDS to know three subjects very well; dogs, of course, early human history and prehistory(which should logically include studies done on primitive lifestyles in more recent times), and wolves--both captive and wild. It is amazing how wolf ignorant most dog people are, and vice-versa. And how animal ignorant a lot of Anthropologists are. But you really need all three to sensibly delve into the origins of dogs. I am going to be away from work–my only source for computer access–for FIVE(count’em!) days, but I will get some wolf titles while I’m off and post them when I return(IF I have not totally reverted to a feral state).Anyone who is going to study and propose theories on dog domestication REALLY NEEDS to know three subjects very well; dogs, of course, early human history and prehistory(which should logically include studies done on primitive lifestyles in more recent times), and wolves–both captive and wild. It is amazing how wolf ignorant most dog people are, and vice-versa. And how animal ignorant a lot of Anthropologists are. But you really need all three to sensibly delve into the origins of dogs.

]]> By: dr.hypercube http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/archives/144/comment-page-1#comment-94 dr.hypercube Tue, 22 May 2007 22:16:34 +0000 http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/?p=144#comment-94 Re: Reindeer Moon - not to worry, it's something we've all done! Bring on the wolf books - can't promise I'll read all of them, but I can try. I'm going to see if I can get "Dogs of the American Indians" via interlibrary loan in anticipation of Steve's piece. @ John Q. - if you haven't already, check out Operation Desert Dove (in the blogroll) - good and interesting thoughts on training (dogs, falcons, parrots, people). @ David Kenney (hopefully you're still checking back) - tried to get my hands on the Van Vuure book - no luck. I'll keep trying - thanks for the info. Re: Reindeer Moon – not to worry, it’s something we’ve all done! Bring on the wolf books – can’t promise I’ll read all of them, but I can try. I’m going to see if I can get “Dogs of the American Indians” via interlibrary loan in anticipation of Steve’s piece.

@ John Q. – if you haven’t already, check out Operation Desert Dove (in the blogroll) – good and interesting thoughts on training (dogs, falcons, parrots, people).

@ David Kenney (hopefully you’re still checking back) – tried to get my hands on the Van Vuure book – no luck. I’ll keep trying – thanks for the info.

]]> By: A. Lane Batot http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/archives/144/comment-page-1#comment-93 A. Lane Batot Tue, 22 May 2007 17:26:37 +0000 http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/?p=144#comment-93 I was just exploring your home-page(sorry, I'm very new and slow to figure out all this computer contraption stuff!) and saw your comment on "Reindeer Moon"! So hopefully my repeating it above will be forgiven(I was raised by wolves, after all...) But glad to see you read it!(and the sequel, "The Animal Wife"). I will also supply you with a list of tamed wolf books and stories if you like.....Remember Coppinger's comment on the Nature special,"No wolf has EVER really been tamed!" I was just exploring your home-page(sorry, I’m very new and slow to figure out all this computer contraption stuff!) and saw your comment on “Reindeer Moon”! So hopefully my repeating it above will be forgiven(I was raised by wolves, after all…) But glad to see you read it!(and the sequel, “The Animal Wife”). I will also supply you with a list of tamed wolf books and stories if you like…..Remember Coppinger’s comment on the Nature special,”No wolf has EVER really been tamed!”

]]> By: A. Lane Batot http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/archives/144/comment-page-1#comment-92 A. Lane Batot Tue, 22 May 2007 14:54:39 +0000 http://hawkdog.net/wordpress/?p=144#comment-92 Here are a few titles to get you started--don't want to overwhelm you too much, and I'm also not sure how available any of these are....These are also all older books. I don't doubt there is material concerning new findings that keep pushing the domestication of dogs back further and further, both archaeological evidence, and the really new DNA information. If you see any titles on that, let ME know! First is "Dogs: A Historical Journey" by Lloyd M. Wendt. This is a good overview of dog history, and has most of the cave paintings featuring dogs illustrated. "The Lost History Of The Canine Race" by Mary Elizabeth Thurston is also very good--she questions a lot of established ideas, but does it sensibly. One intriguing point she makes is that WOMEN may have had a lot to do with early first dometications. "Dogs Through History" by dog world patriarch Maxwell Riddle is also a good overview, although this dog expert's knowledge on wolves is poor. He was a Malamute fancier, and has the Malamute Breeders' hang-ups about wolves and dogs breeding together, which modern day wolf-hybrid issues have created(which I think are irrelevant to stone-age or more primitive lifestyles). A really fascinating book about little known aspects of dog types is "Dogs Of The American Indians" by William Pferd the 3rd. I had no idea about the great variety of dogs, including very small terrier-sized breeds or types in existence long before the European invasion, before I read this book. Some of these remains date back 10,000 years or more, which means the Native Americans most assuredley had dogs when they came across the land bridge from Asia in the Pleistocene--way before agriculture! All the other books mention the earliest fossils dated at 13-14,000 yrs. ago--that may have been pushed back further with more recent findings. A fun book that gives a new radical idea on how wolves might have initiated and inspired stone-age humans to begin the domestication process is "Reindeer Moon" by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas. It is a novel about Pleistocene people--perhaps not as popular as The Clan Of The Cave Bear series, but way more realistic. Thomas lived with Eskimos, Bushmen, and other "primitive" peoples, so she has an excellent take on how they think. I enjoyed the Clan of the Cave Bear series too, but my impression of those books overall is that the author was giving ancient people the same thoughts and motivations as modern people, which is probably considerably off. I describe that series as "Barbie and Ken take a trip through the Pleistocene!" All these books have bibliographies with more sources--ALL KINDS OF INFO OUT THERE that Coppinger is ignoring or ignorant of--NO EXCUSE for someone being labeled a "dog expert"! Here are a few titles to get you started–don’t want to overwhelm you too much, and I’m also not sure how available any of these are….These are also all older books. I don’t doubt there is material concerning new findings that keep pushing the domestication of dogs back further and further, both archaeological evidence, and the really new DNA information. If you see any titles on that, let ME know! First is “Dogs: A Historical Journey” by Lloyd M. Wendt. This is a good overview of dog history, and has most of the cave paintings featuring dogs illustrated. “The Lost History Of The Canine Race” by Mary Elizabeth Thurston is also very good–she questions a lot of established ideas, but does it sensibly. One intriguing point she makes is that WOMEN may have had a lot to do with early first dometications. “Dogs Through History” by dog world patriarch Maxwell Riddle is also a good overview, although this dog expert’s knowledge on wolves is poor. He was a Malamute fancier, and has the Malamute Breeders’ hang-ups about wolves and dogs breeding together, which modern day wolf-hybrid issues have created(which I think are irrelevant to stone-age or more primitive lifestyles). A really fascinating book about little known aspects of dog types is “Dogs Of The American Indians” by William Pferd the 3rd. I had no idea about the great variety of dogs, including very small terrier-sized breeds or types in existence long before the European invasion, before I read this book. Some of these remains date back 10,000 years or more, which means the Native Americans most assuredley had dogs when they came across the land bridge from Asia in the Pleistocene–way before agriculture! All the other books mention the earliest fossils dated at 13-14,000 yrs. ago–that may have been pushed back further with more recent findings. A fun book that gives a new radical idea on how wolves might have initiated and inspired stone-age humans to begin the domestication process is “Reindeer Moon” by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas. It is a novel about Pleistocene people–perhaps not as popular as The Clan Of The Cave Bear series, but way more realistic. Thomas lived with Eskimos, Bushmen, and other “primitive” peoples, so she has an excellent take on how they think. I enjoyed the Clan of the Cave Bear series too, but my impression of those books overall is that the author was giving ancient people the same thoughts and motivations as modern people, which is probably considerably off. I describe that series as “Barbie and Ken take a trip through the Pleistocene!” All these books have bibliographies with more sources–ALL KINDS OF INFO OUT THERE that Coppinger is ignoring or ignorant of–NO EXCUSE for someone being labeled a “dog expert”!

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